The following is a transcript of an interview with Fiona Hill and Chris Krebs that aired Sunday, Dec. 11, 2022, on “Face the Nation.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: Before we get to our subsequent section, a fast observe up. We requested the White House for a response to the Shargi household, and a spokesperson mentioned that they’ve supplied a gathering with the President’s National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, and so they’re engaged on scheduling it.
Turning now to nationwide safety. We wish to welcome our panel of specialists, former National Security Council Russia specialists Fiona Hill, and Chris Krebs, former cybersecurity and infrastructure safety company head and a CBS News analyst. They each labored collectively in the course of the Trump administration. Good morning to you each.
CHRIS KREBS: Morning.
FIONA HILL: Morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Fiona, there’s a lot to get to however I wish to ask about this prisoner swap. Your former colleague, John Bolton, your former boss proper on the National Security Council, advised one in all my colleagues at CBS that the potential of a Boot for Whelan commerce existed again then, and it wasn’t made for superb causes having to take care of Victor Boot. Do you recall a possible prisoner swap with Russia?
HILL: Yes, I do recall that. That was raised many instances by the Russians that they needed Victor Boot. And on the time, there was additionally the drug smuggler, Yaroshenko, who was finally swapped for Trevor Reed, the opposite former Marine, they have been placed on the desk by the Russians making it very clear that that they had each intent of making an attempt to swap Americans which were wrongfully detained for people in United States custody who have been there for fairly good causes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you see one thing significantly harmful about Victor Boot? I imply, why was that swap turned down then, however it occurred simply this previous week?
HILL: Well look, on the explicit time, I additionally must say right here that President Trump wasn’t particularly concerned with participating in that swap for additionally Paul Whelan. He was not significantly concerned with Paul’s case in the best way that one would have thought he could be. Ambassador Bolton met with Elizabeth Whelan, Paul’s sister. I used to be at that assembly as effectively. There was numerous consideration being paid to this and looking for methods of arranging Paul’s launch by all totally different components of the US authorities. But after all, it was an enormous debate about Victor Boot himself. I imply, as we see now as effectively, the absurdity of the Russians asking for the discharge of a infamous arms supplier, in addition to someone who had been convicted of enormous scale narcotics smuggling, in return for American residents who had been both setup within the case of Paul Whelan, and later imprisoned within the case of Trevor Reed and Brittney Griner for very minor infractions that might have been dealt with otherwise in several instances. It was clear that the Russians have been seeking to type of set the United States up as effectively, for simply the sorts of issues that we’re seeing now when it comes to the roiling of home politics as Chairman Schiff talks about later. I imply that is all a part of a political recreation for the Russian authorities.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And that is what you will have been speaking about, Chris, that the- the spin round this that has actually electrified the political physique on this nation?
KREBS: Well, I, Putin could be very a lot tap- tapped into the tradition wars right here, he understands the varied levers and divisions that exist in American society. And, , given the truth that Russia doesn’t have a complete lot occurring right here, their army clearly is underperforming on the sphere in Ukraine, economically, they’re a little bit of a , has been. This is without doubt one of the few areas that Putin nonetheless has affect and talent to form the worldwide narratives. And so that is a type of issues the place I feel Americans touring and as overseas, as quickly as you permit the United States, it’s a must to be very aware of how you could match into these, these info battles backwards and forwards.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But it has grow to be an assault level from Republicans, together with the House Republican chief, that this swap came about for a Marine veteran left behind, however Fiona is you are making the purpose that that Marine veteran was left behind he was captured in the course of the Trump administration. So you are arguing that is simply disingenuous outcry primarily?
HILL: Look, what now we have to keep in mind as within the earlier section, dropped at the fore is now we have numerous American residents who’re being taken by different nations for political functions–
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Biden referred to as it a nationwide emergency.
HILL: That’s completely proper. And as Chris is saying, each single American citizen who travels overseas, even, look allies in companion nations, if you happen to get into bother, there’s solely a lot that the United States authorities can do for you. And when it’s a state like Russia or Iran, or China or North Korea, I imply, a few of them are extra apparent than others, you’re placing your self at a sure diploma of danger, even if you happen to suppose you have been simply principally going farther for vacationer functions or to go to household or for one thing routine. Remember, Trevor Reid was going to go to his girlfriend. Paul Whelan was going to a marriage. And Brittney Griner was doing one thing that many different athletes do around the globe, together with Russian athletes right here within the United States. If we consider Ovechkin for instance, , taking part in one of many , the best hockey gamers right here within the United States are taking part in in for Washington’s finest staff. They have been doing one thing that appeared routine, appeared utterly strange, however discovered themselves snuggled up in principally political video games. And now we have to be aware of the truth that when governments do that, they’re doing it for buying and selling functions, however they’re additionally doing it to mess about in our politics, and we’re falling each single time for this, the extra that we battle with one another, the extra that we play into their palms. And we additionally danger different Americans being taken, as a result of it is a method of influencing our home politics.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s attention-grabbing, you join all these dots there. I do know, Chris, you- you will have been watching simply the dialog now we have with ourselves on social media and the way infected it’s. When it involves a few of these extra excessive teams. It’s nearly generally, it sounds so absurd and but there are nationwide safety dangers, as we noticed in Germany this week with this extraordinary arrest and tried coup in Germany by individuals linked to Q anon. I imply, it would not sound actual. But it’s.
KREBS: Well, the Q anon piece, I feel it is a- it is a reminder, affirmation that Q anon is a worldwide phenomenon that’s catching on. And really, I feel partially, what we’re seeing now could be that it is broadening and it is nearly turning into mainstream. We have this tried coup in Germany, now we have January sixth and the efforts to overturn the January 2020- or the 2020 election, that was Q adjoining as effectively. These issues are catching on, and so they’re informing rather more radical behaviors, each at a nationwide degree and as a neighborhood degree. And I feel, partially, a few of the issues that we’re seeing with the assaults on {the electrical} grid, as an example, are- is probably not Q, however they’re extremists. They’re on-line. They’re white supremacist teams which might be knocking down and creating playbooks. And in order that they’re nationwide degree efforts, however they’re additionally native degree efforts. And numerous that is simply as a result of broader info ecosystem, and the way virulent these conspiracy theories and efforts to, , overcome regular civil society.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Homeland Security Secretary mentioned that it did seem in North Carolina, that assault was deliberate, however it’s early. Are you saying you imagine there may be proof that it’s tied to organized home extremists?
KREBS: So that I feel is-is nonetheless a big query mark, and the investigators are having a look at however the assault itself on that facility, that substation in Moore County, was unquestionably deliberate the ways they that the attackers used a number of, two totally different substations after which getting in and concentrating on very particular crucial gear in that website. There’s no query that it was premeditated, that it was coordinated, it was deliberate. Combine that with the very fact that there have been half a dozen comparable kinds of occasions within the Pacific Northwest, there have been occasions in-in- all through the southeast. So it says to me that there’s something broader occurring right here. And maybe we’re paying extra consideration now. But- however there’s a vital risk to the- to our nation’s crucial infrastructure. And proper now, each the utility operators in addition to regulation enforcement, I feel are doing a tough have a look at what wants to vary, and the way will we counter this risk?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Fiona, whenever you have been with us in October 2021, you mentioned one thing that caught in my mind ever since the place you talked concerning the election cycles of 2022 and 2024 being potential automobiles for potential violence. And you name January 6, a gown rehearsal. Are you as involved now, as you have been then concerning the stability of the nation?
HILL: I’m, let’s simply say, a bit extra cautiously optimistic than I used to be again then. I imply, I feel all alarms and purple lights have been flashing on each entrance for all of us at that individual juncture. And we have really seen rather more cautious dealing with on each entrance of latest elections, together with the midterms, individuals being extra circumspect about what’s occurring. Of course, we have the committee, we simply had Chairman Schiff on this system, and the work that they are doing, which is, I feel, performed a vital position for lots of Americans in type of seeing how the whole lot unfolded. And individuals are waking as much as this- the dangers of simply a lot acrimony in our politics. Now, it doesn’t suggest to say that we’re out of the woods. And really, as Chris was saying, we have an terrible lot of teams who’ve been fired up by all of this. And in addition they take inspiration from worldwide occasions. And so it is not a coincidence, as we have been speaking about, you have had this coup try in Germany. And there are linkages amongst all of those occasions, as a result of there are specific teams that move backwards and forwards and so they hyperlink on the web, and so they have private direct connections. And so we’re nonetheless in a harmful time the place we must be vigilant and occupied with our resilience.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you for connecting all these dots for each of you for us. We’ll be again in a second.