On this “Face the Nation” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
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Rep. Daniel Goldman — (D) New York
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Rep. Chris Stewart — (R) Utah
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Lucius Outlaw III — Associate professor of legislation at Howard University School of Law
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Chris Whipple — Author of “The Fight of His Life: Inside Joe Biden’s White House”
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Larry Pfeiffer — Director of the Hayden Center at George Mason University
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Michael Morell — Former CIA deputy director, CBS News nationwide safety contributor
Click right here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: We’re simply two weeks into the brand new 12 months, and Washington is already swamped in scandals.
The questions engulfing the Biden administration concerning the high secret paperwork found late final 12 months and final week proceed to develop, as we discovered yesterday of much more labeled pages found at his Delaware house simply hours after the appointment of a particular prosecutor.
Unsurprisingly, there have been cries of hypocrisy and guarantees of subpoenas from Republicans.
(Begin VT)
REPRESENTATIVE STEVE SCALISE (R-Louisiana): I’m wondering why the press is not asking the identical questions of him as vp taking labeled paperwork that they had been asking President Trump.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: But reporters have expressed disbelief.
(Begin VT)
QUESTION: Classified materials subsequent to your Corvette. What had been you pondering?
JOE BIDEN (President of the United States): My Corvette is in a locked storage, OK? So it is not like they’re sitting out on the road.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And exasperation with the administration’s response.
Republicans are going through their very own scandal with probably the most infamous member of the freshman class, New York’s George Santos. The questions on who knew what and when about George Santos, who has admitted to falsifying his resume and is now underneath a number of prison investigations, additionally proceed to develop.
Some New York Republicans have referred to as for him to stop, however the occasion management is circling the political wagons, as Santos is a desperately wanted vote within the House.
(Begin VT)
QUESTION: Are you going to take any motion in opposition to him at this level? Are any of those allegations acceptable to you?
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-California): What are the costs in opposition to him?
QUESTION: Well…
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY: Is there a cost in opposition to him? You know, in America at the moment, you are harmless till confirmed responsible.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Now there are new reviews that some in Republican politics knew Santos was sketchy effectively earlier than he was elected.
We will discuss with former federal prosecutor turned New York Democratic Congressman Daniel Goldman, plus Utah Republican Congressman Chris Stewart.
Finally, a better take a look at a development that Martin Luther King Jr. advised Face the Nation he was involved about and the place we stand at the moment.
It’s all simply forward on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
The labeled paperwork controversy going through the White House grew but once more this weekend with the news that 5 extra labeled pages had been discovered on Thursday. The investigation started again in November, when Attorney General Merrick Garland assigned Chicago U.S. legal professional John Lausch to look into the invention of paperwork that included some high secret data in a D.C. workplace as soon as utilized by Mr. Biden.
Although that discovery was six days earlier than the midterm elections, the primary time the general public heard about it was final Monday, when the White House responded to inquiries from CBS News.
CBS News correspondent and Weekend News Saturday anchor Adriana Diaz broke this story. And she is again in Chicago with the most recent — Adriana.
ADRIANA DIAZ: Good morning, Margaret.
We now know of roughly 20 labeled data recovered from the place they need to not have been, an workplace at a Washington suppose tank the place Mr. Biden frolicked after he was vp, Mr. Biden’s storage in Wilmington, and in a room subsequent to that storage. That’s the place the most recent 5 pages had been found Thursday night, extending what’s grow to be an advanced saga.
(Begin VT)
ADRIANA DIAZ (voice-over): The newest discovery of labeled materials got here simply hours after the legal professional normal, citing extraordinary circumstances, introduced to the appointment of particular counsel Robert Hur.
MERRICK GARLAND (U.S. Attorney General): This morning, President Biden’s private counsel referred to as Mr. Lausch and said that a further doc bearing classification markings was recognized on the president’s private residence in Wilmington, Delaware.
ADRIANA DIAZ: Thursday night, particular counsel to the president Richard Sauber, who says he was chosen to show over that extra doc as a result of he has safety clearance, mentioned he went to the House together with DOJ officers.
“While I was transferring it,” he mentioned in an announcement Saturday, “five additional pages with classified markings were discovered.”
Republicans have pounced on an administration that has prided itself on transparency.
REPRESENTATIVE KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-California): They knew this has occurred to President Biden earlier than the election, however they stored it a secret from the American public?
ADRIANA DIAZ: Legal consultants say there are some similarities, but additionally some key variations between President Biden and former President Trump, who’s underneath a separate particular counsel investigation, not only for probably mishandling tons of of labeled paperwork discovered at his Florida residence final 12 months, but additionally for thwarting makes an attempt to get better these paperwork and obstructing the federal government’s investigation.
In September, President Biden was crucial of Trump throughout an interview with 60 Minutes.
JOE BIDEN (President of the United States): How that might presumably occur, how one — anybody may very well be that irresponsible. And I assumed, what information was in there which will compromise sources and strategies? By that, I imply names of people that helped or et cetera. And it is simply completely irresponsible.
(End VT)
ADRIANA DIAZ: The regular tempo of latest developments has many questioning, what’s subsequent?
Should we anticipate extra paperwork? The quick reply is possibly. Part of the explanation labeled data hold turning up is that the president’s private attorneys who’ve been wanting by his papers haven’t got the clearance to view labeled supplies. So, once they discover one thing, they cease, so somebody with clearance can take over.
In the case of the Wilmington home, that particular person discovered extra — Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Adriana, thanks.
We’re joined now by senior White House and political correspondent Ed O’Keefe.
Ed, discuss to me about transparency. Why did not the president’s attorneys or the White House acknowledge this?
ED O’KEEFE: Well, look, they suppose they’ve dealt with this by the e book, at the very least from a authorized perspective. And, finally, that is what they’re extra involved about.
They imagine this was a mistake, that latest historical past reveals, when this stuff are mistakenly discovered by individuals who had entry to labeled data they usually flip it over shortly, it will get handled shortly by the Justice Department, possibly anyone will get slapped on the wrist, they usually transfer on.
But the difficulty with public transparency and the president not being straight with the American public is definitely going to linger now and be the topic of questions, not solely within the press, however most likely from his critics on Capitol Hill.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we nonetheless do not know why there have been attorneys looking the places of work on November 2, once they discovered these paperwork. And the Penn Biden Center has not returned CBS’ calls and questions on that very primary reality.
But fast-forward to the particular counsel. How is that this going to have an effect on the administration?
ED O’KEEFE: Well, within the statements that had been launched on Saturday, the White House now says: We’re not even confirming primary particulars anymore. You have any, you’ll be able to go to the Justice Department. They’re those taking questions.
This primarily ties the palms of the White House on this matter by way of data circulate out. Democrats on the skin wanting in annoyed and concern for his or her colleagues, as one in all them mentioned to me, this week, they had been attempting to place lipstick on a pig. The downside is, they had been handed 50 pigs and just one stick of lipstick.
This is incoming like they’d not anticipated in any respect earlier than. And, because the White House tries to maintain centered on different issues, you need to anticipate that they’ll simply hold centered, for instance, on the financial system, because the president did this previous week, as he’ll within the coming week. They have warned now that the debt restrict showdown is coming. And that must be handled.
They have been attempting to speak concerning the accomplishments within the final two years. As one Democrat put it to me, on the finish of the day, do Americans care that the labeled data was discovered within the properties of the previous president, the present president? Maybe. But, finally, on the finish of the day, they’re most likely extra involved concerning the primary value of groceries.
And so the White House is extra more likely to attempt to hold centered on these issues and hold sending it to the Justice Department. But they clearly had an issue this week with this, particularly as a result of you could have a president who made marketing campaign and day one guarantees of transparency, they usually weren’t stored right here, for no matter purpose. Lots of questions nonetheless to come back.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we all know you’ll proceed asking them.
Ed, thanks for becoming a member of us.
We go now to Congressman Dan Goldman, a former U.S. legal professional in New York, who served because the lead counsel for the Democrats within the first impeachment trial of former President Trump. So, it’s possible you’ll acknowledge him.
Good morning to you, Congressman.
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN (D-New York): Good morning, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, let’s begin with the appointment of the particular counsel.
I do know you had been requested final week, and also you mentioned you didn’t suppose one was needed. Given what we now know and the developments, do you continue to suppose it was a mistake to nominate Hur as a particular counsel?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: I do not suppose it was a mistake.
I do not suppose any of us actually have understanding of what data the legal professional normal had when he determined to nominate Mr. Hur because the particular counsel. But I do suppose it goes to a extremely necessary reality that’s being missed right here, which is that this administration is doing issues by the e book.
There is a divide and a separation between the Department of Justice and the White House that definitely didn’t exist within the final administration. And President Biden and his crew have reached out to the Archives. They have reached out to the Department of Justice. They have completed the whole lot they will to cooperate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: And that is in direct distinction to what former President Trump has completed, the place he has obstructed justice at each flip.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Doing issues by the e book now, however, clearly, within the dealing with of labeled materials, not by the e book, as a result of the laws are fairly clear there.
Can you clarify to me, for the search that we simply laid out that was occurring on the president’s house for the present president, his Wilmington house on Thursday, why would he ship attorneys who haven’t got a safety clearance to seek for labeled materials?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: I’m unsure. And we do not know the circumstances of that.
But, definitely, the paperwork go away the vp’s workplace and need to be saved someplace. I do hope we’ll discover out extra details about it. But, as you see from the White House’s assertion from the non-public legal professional Bob Bauer’s assertion, they’re doing the whole lot by the e book. They take this labeled data being the place it shouldn’t be — and all of us acknowledge it shouldn’t be there — they take it very critically.
And they’re abiding by the legal guidelines. They have reached out and been as cooperative as potential. And that is a part of the explanation why they cannot communicate, is that they’d be probably interfering with an ongoing investigation, which, as soon as once more, this administration takes very critically.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, are you able to clarify, on Thursday, why a White House legal professional, somebody who’s paid by U.S. taxpayers, was the one with the safety clearance who received within the automobile and drove all the way down to Delaware to then choose up the place these attorneys who did not have safety clearance left off, after which discovered the 5 labeled paperwork?
Why is it acceptable for a White House lawyer to be concerned on this private matter?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: Well, as a result of it entails labeled data, which belongs to the federal government.
And this White House lawyer, Mr. Sauber, has safety clearance. So the non-public attorneys, as soon as they discovered a labeled doc…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, that’s acceptable to you?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: … need to put it down, cease. And then the White House counsel — sure, in fact, that is acceptable.
When you could have issues of nationwide safety, you could guarantee that those that have clearance to overview them are reviewing them. And, as soon as once more, we’re specializing in quite a lot of the nitty-gritty particulars right here. The larger image is broad cooperation from the president, who clearly takes this very critically.
And that needs to be actually underscored right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had…
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: … in addition to the significance of an independence of the Department of Justice.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had an op-ed final 12 months concerning the forty fifth president and the problems with labeled materials.
And you laid out 4 components you mentioned prosecutors want to have a look at, intent to distribute, clear data of significance, quantity of the fabric, and whether or not or not investigators had been lied to.
Is that the set of standards you additionally suppose President Biden must be judged on?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: It completely is.
And I believe, if you happen to undergo these standards, and each, they don’t apply. We have no indication that President Biden knew about them. He definitely has demonstrated no intent to deceive or hinder the federal government by maintaining them. And that is in direct distinction to President Trump, who refused to cooperate, who refused to adjust to a subpoena, and who finally pressured the Department of Justice to execute a search warrant to retrieve the labeled paperwork.
When you take a look at this very clearly, and also you examine them, there isn’t any comparability. Those 4 components, I imagine, apply to President Trump, and none of them apply to President Biden. And that’s the place we must be centering this dialog.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I wish to ask you about your first week in Congress.
One of the stuff you did was hand-deliver this ethics criticism to your fellow New Yorker Republican George Santos. He’s underneath native, state, federal and worldwide investigation. You want a easy majority to maneuver forward with any form of ethics motion.
Do you could have any Republicans supporting what you are attempting to do right here?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: Well, the speaker of the House indicated that the — he would assist an ethics investigation.
And, actually, this morning, Congressman Torres and I despatched a letter to Speaker McCarthy, Chairwoman Stefanik and the top of the Congressional Leadership Fund, Kevin McCarthy’s tremendous PAC arm, as a result of there’s actually, actually bombshell indication and reporting from “The New York Times” that all of them knew about Mr. Santos’ lies previous to the election.
And as a part of this investigation, we’re calling on them to be absolutely cooperative with the investigators, each in Congress and outdoors of Congress, to reveal precisely what they knew about Mr. Santos’ lies and whether or not they had been complicit within the scheme to defraud voters.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, for folk at house who aren’t following this in nice diploma of element, they hear Kevin McCarthy say issues like — Speaker McCarthy say issues like, effectively, different folks have additionally mentioned issues that are not true they usually work in Congress.
They take a look at the truth that Senator Menendez of New Jersey has mentioned he is aware of of an ongoing federal probe that entails him. Plenty of Democrats have did not disclose inventory trades, different issues like that. Why is that this case completely different? And how is that this not simply politics? Can you clarify it?
REPRESENTATIVE DANIEL GOLDMAN: George — positive.
George Santos is an entire and complete fraud. Everything that he mentioned about himself on the marketing campaign path, almost the whole lot, has confirmed to be a lie. His monetary disclosures are — have clear false statements and omissions. And that is what we referred to the Ethics Committee for an investigation to resolve whether or not he broke the legislation.
Eight Republican congressmembers have referred to as on him to resign. This just isn’t like every of the opposite examples you are speaking about. This is a scheme to defraud the voters of the Third District in New York. And this must be investigated intensively. And Mr. Santos must suppose twice about whether or not he belongs in Congress.
And, extra importantly, the speaker must suppose twice about whether or not Mr. Santos is match to serve in Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We can be monitoring that story. Thank you very a lot, Congressman.
And we flip now to Republican Congressman Chris Stewart of Utah.
Good morning to you, sir.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART (R-Utah): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You sit on the Intelligence Committee, which has requested for extra data from the director of nationwide intelligence in regard to the Biden paperwork.
But whenever you had been on Act Daily News final week, you mentioned you actually doubt that there is one thing that might endanger nationwide safety right here. Do you suppose that is simply an overreaction to this story?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: No, I do not.
I imply, I do suppose it is unlikely that — when President Trump had this related expertise, some within the media and others claimed, oh, he has nuclear codes, nuclear secrets and techniques. I mentioned on the time, I discover that terribly unlikely, and I — unlikely.
And I believe that the identical factor can be true of this case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, they’re…
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: It’s most likely not that sort of — that sort of knowledge.
But if I may make this level in a short time concerning the probability of him being unaware of this, I imply, not solely am I on the Intelligence Committee. I used to be an Air Force pilot. I flew the B-1. I’ve handled labeled paperwork nearly my total life.
And you need to know, each one in all these paperwork, they’ve a canopy sheet that is pink.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: It says what the classification is and why it is labeled. Every single web page has a classification marking on it.
This is not the form of factor that you just simply sit in your desk and also you suppose, oh, I forgot that they are labeled. It’s very clear that they are labeled. And for many who suppose that, effectively, the president did not notice that he had these in his possession simply is nonsense. Of course, he knew that he had them. They’re so apparent.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you are making use of that normal to each circumstances right here.
CBS is reporting that there was high secret data within the paperwork present in Biden’s possession. You advised Act Daily News that there could also be much more delicate data at larger classification than that, TS/SCI.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you realize that to be a reality? Were you knowledgeable of that?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: No, we do not know that but…
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: … though it has been — it has been reported, however it could be very, crucial.
I imply, SCI, particular compartmented data…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: … it limits it to some dozen folks in some circumstances, some circumstances, even much less.
That can be extraordinary if that was the case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because that was what we’ve got reported was within the Trump case, that there was TS/SCI, that classification degree.
The Office of the Director of National Intelligence has determined to not touch upon these issues at this level. Have they knowledgeable your committee whenever you would possibly get some form of replace or briefing, both on the forty fifth president or the present one?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
Well, we do know this. The director of nationwide intelligence can select to not remark to the American folks, however she will’t select to not remark us. We have requested an evaluation of those paperwork,the potential hurt that they might have triggered.
And I anticipate that we’ll obtain that throughout the subsequent few weeks. And we should always obtain that within the subsequent few weeks. If these paperwork had been accessible for a protracted time period in such an open atmosphere as a storage, for heaven’s sakes — now, I perceive the storage was locked, because the president made the purpose.
But, nonetheless, they had been accessible. It’s necessary for us to know the potential harm to those paperwork and these paperwork being accessible it could have triggered to the American — and American safety.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what do you anticipate to get within the subsequent few weeks? Because I perceive the director has not but briefed on the Trump case.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
Again, we anticipate to have an evaluation of what these paperwork had been, the classification of them, the fabric that was included in them, and potential safety breaches and the menace to nationwide safety because of these paperwork not being secured.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
I wish to transfer on to different issues, as a result of I perceive you are additionally on the Appropriations Committee.
The treasury secretary says we will hit that debt ceiling on the nineteenth and have to enter extraordinary measures to verify the federal authorities pays payments right here.
Can you assure that Republicans will work with Democrats to verify we do not set off an financial disaster?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Well, we definitely wish to work with them. And we hope that they may work with us and the president will work with us.
Look, I’m not a fan of presidency shutdowns. I truthfully do not know anybody who’s. It does not assist. On the opposite hand, I do wish to make this level. It’s so necessary. Look, the explanation that we’re coping with inflation that we’re, which has been generational — and it is price remembering it hurts the poorest amongst us. The working poor are those that are most impacted by inflation.
And the first trigger — actually, I might argue nearly the only trigger — is authorities spending and authorities debt. And as we come up on the debt…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, it is a pile of points. It’s a pile of points that we’ve got coated in depth on this program.
But, on this challenge coping with your work in Congress, are you able to avert having the credit score — creditworthiness within the United States referred to as into query…
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … if — by really coming to an settlement to take care of this challenge…
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … earlier than we get to a place of speaking a few authorities shutdown?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes, effectively, I believe that we will and we should always.
But that to complete my different level, as a result of it is really related to your query about inflation due to authorities spending, if that is true, and it’s true, then you need to perceive there can be Republicans who will say, we have to reform. We want to make use of this as a car to attempt to put some limits on our spending, on our debt and our deficits.
And I’m one in all them. And there are various others who can be. So the query that you’ve got requested now could be, are these two rules, the actual fact we have to reform and lower our deficits and our spending…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: … can we reconcile that with, on the identical time, we do not wish to hurt the credit score of the United States authorities?
That’s our objective. I believe Republicans are aligned on that. I hope the president is as effectively.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: And, hopefully, we get to settlement on that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Hopefully.
I wish to ask you about George Santos, as you heard me ask your Democratic colleague.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Can an elected official who’s underneath that many investigations be trusted as a lawmaker? Should he resign?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Well, it is a core query.
Look, I do not know Mr. Santos. I’ve by no means had an opportunity to speak with him. As you observe this, it is form of onerous…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you could discuss to him to have a solution to that query?
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: Well, no, I do not, which is — as I used to be simply going to say, as you observe this, it is fairly onerous to not conclude he is a little bit of a goofball.
He clearly lied to his constituents. And to your level as effectively, it may be very, very tough for him to achieve the belief of his colleagues. And I do not know what he’ll do. I imply, the truth is, is, you’ll be able to’t expel a member of Congress. At the tip of the day, it truly is as much as the voters in Nassau County.
I can inform you this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: If I had been in that state of affairs, I do not understand how I may proceed to serve.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE CHRIS STEWART: And I had — I suppose he must ask that very same query.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will proceed to ask that.
Congressman, thanks in your time this morning.
We can be again in a minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: President Biden will grow to be the primary sitting president to talk throughout a Sunday service on the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, the place Reverend Martin Luther King was as soon as a pastor.
King appeared on Face the Nation in May of 1964, when he was working together with President Johnson to get the Civil Rights Act handed.
(Begin VT)
QUESTION: Dr. King, in gentle of latest statements of Senator Barry Goldwater and, in some circumstances, Richard Nixon, do you suppose there’s an actual hazard of the Republican Party changing into the white man occasion on this nation?
MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. (Civil Rights Leader): I believe this can be a actual hazard. And I’ve talked with some Negro Republicans who’re very involved about this.
I see traits and developments which is able to reveal that, until the liberals of the Republican Party take a way more — play a way more decisive position in management positions, this may grow to be a white man’s occasion.
And I believe this may be tragic for the Republican Party, in addition to tragic for the nation.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Today, the 118th Congress is probably the most racially and ethnically various in U.S. historical past. And it has been trending up for the final seven Congresses.
There are a complete of 60 black members within the House and Senate. Only 5 are Republicans. According to the Pew Institute, 13 % of House members are black, which is on par with the black inhabitants within the U.S. for the very first time.
When Congress handed the Civil Rights Act two months after Martin Luther King spoke on Face the Nation, there have been simply 5, all House Democrats.
We can be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you miss an episode of Face the Nation, you’ll be able to take heed to our podcast. Find us on Amazon Music.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome again to FACE THE NATION.
And we’re again now with some evaluation.
Michael Morell is a CBS nationwide safety contributor and the previous deputy director of the CIA. Lucius Outlaw is professor of legislation at Howard University. And Larry Pfeiffer is the director of the Hayden Center right here in Washington and a former White House official.
Good morning to all of you.
And I’m hoping you’ll be able to form of give us a number of backside traces on what’s a growing story right here.
Larry, I wish to begin with you since you ran the White House state of affairs room as its senior director, so you understand how the present president, when he was vp, interacted with labeled materials.
Just blanket assertion, anybody who retains paperwork marked high secret of their private possession would face a excessive diploma of scrutiny. When is it a prison act?
LARRY PFEIFFER (Director, Hayden Center for Intelligence Policy and International Security): It turns into a prison act, I believe, when there’s intention to take away the paperwork to a location. In my expertise, 32 years within the intel group, time on the White House, you realize, accidents occur. These are paper paperwork. People carry them in folders. You know, typically they – they stroll out with them and – and – and – and they’ll uncover that they’ve taken them. And once they uncover that they’ve taken them accidentally, they may shortly return them or have anyone return them to acceptable location. And I believe that is what occurred right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Why do you suppose that?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Well, simply from at the very least what – what we have heard up to now. It seems to me like anyone most likely unknowingly took some blended group of papers, threw them in a field, and – after which they received shipped off to the residence. I believe we heard that among the paperwork —
MARGARET BRENNAN: You suppose it is a workers downside, that additionally they had been touching this labeled data?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Oh, sure, I’m – I sincerely doubt that Joe Biden himself threw this stuff in a field and – and – and shipped them off to the White House. I’m positive — I’m sorry, to his residence. I’m positive that this was a workers – a workers challenge. Some – some aide who, in a rush, within the final days of the administration, was simply grabbing supplies and throwing them in a field.
I believe we even heard that it was in — a few of this materials was in bins that included materials about his son’s funeral. So, they might have seen, you realize, son, Beau Biden funeral preparations and thought, oh, OK, let’s simply put this in a field, not realizing that there have been different paperwork intermingled.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike Morell, you had been the deputy CIA director, as – as we talked about. You know how you can take labeled materials into your private home in a safe trend. I think about not in a storage, essentially, because the president mentioned there. But for six years these paperwork had been in personal possession. Is there a threat there?
MICHAEL MORELL: Margaret, there may be completely a threat any time there are labeled paperwork that aren’t in a managed facility. And as you mentioned, you realize, there’s numerous years the place these paperwork weren’t dealt with correctly. So, there’s completely a threat.
I imagine that the intelligence group must do a harm evaluation. The House Intelligence Committee has requested for that. They deserve it. Just as they do within the case of former President Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s — so, one of many questions that is arising, and, Lucius, maybe you — Professor Outlaw, maybe you’ll be able to weigh in right here. This additionally got here up with the Trump case. If it is not the president himself packing up the labeled materials, if there are different aides, additionally they might have authorized publicity right here. We know that a kind of staffers was questioned, Kathy Chung. She presently works on the Pentagon. She was an assistant. Is anyone like that right here at nice authorized threat?
LUCIUS OUTLAW (Law Professor, Howard University): Well, there’s at all times going to be some threat, nevertheless it’s actually going to come back all the way down to intent. Was there some form of prison intent or was this negligence and even recklessness? And I believe that is what the Department of Justice goes to essentially weigh out.
And in relation to the presidents, I actually do not suppose the DOJ goes to go in direction of a prison prosecution about labeled paperwork as a result of there’s so many open authorized questions on presidents and labeled paperwork and whether or not or not these prison statutes apply to presidents.
And Garland and the DOJ know that these questions will find yourself on the Supreme Court they usually can don’t have any confidence that in a authorized combat with Trump, and even with Biden, however principally with Trump, that they are going to be profitable in a combat in opposition to Trump on the Supreme Court about government energy and using energy by Trump.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, in each circumstances, the forty fifth president and the present one, you do not suppose that there’ll really find yourself being any prosecutions?
LUCIUS OUTLAW: I do not suppose there can be prosecutions with regard to prison — about labeled data. The obstruction, that is a totally completely different story. And I believe we already see indicators, that is the place the DOJ is headed by way of Trump. When they served the warrant, the warrant software specifies the precise prison statutes that they are investigating. Not a kind of statutes has something to do with labeled supplies. Most of the statutes need to do with obstruction. And I believe that is the cleanest, greatest path as a result of it does not matter if you happen to’re a president, both you hinder otherwise you did not. You haven’t got presidential energy to hinder justice. So, I believe that’s the best and most definitely course for the DOJ.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, Larry Pfeiffer, if you happen to may weigh in right here. We heard from Dan Goldman, congressman, that he thinks it is fully acceptable by way of how the White House is dealing with this and the president’s personal attorneys. Should they be sending, in your view, attorneys with no – no safety clearances to seek for labeled paperwork? And then, ought to White House attorneys be concerned in any means on this case?
LARRY PFEIFFER: Well, uncleared folks shouldn’t be looking by bins on the lookout for labeled materials as a result of it now exposes labeled materials to anyone who should not be seeing it. My understanding is that a few of these people might have beforehand had clearance, which possibly attenuates the circumstances somewhat bit.
Whether it is White House attorneys are concerned or not, I believe that is the discretion of the president as to whom, maybe, he trusts. As an intelligence skilled for 30-plus years, I believe I might have preferred to have seen possibly an intelligence or a safety skilled going and doing these searches. But, you realize, it’s what it’s at this level.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mike Morell, you realize, when this challenge got here to the forefront with former President Trump, one of many defenses of him was, effectively, there’s over classification and, subsequently, possibly these paperwork aren’t that delicate. And then, in fact, news companies, together with CBS, reported that many of those — tons of of paperwork really had been very delicate.
But what’s your view right here? Is there a broader challenge that two fairly important males have had this degree of challenge dealing with labeled data?
MICHAEL MORELL: Margaret, I believe there’s a broader challenge, nevertheless it’s not over classification. I labored on the CIA for 33 years. I didn’t see data labeled to a degree the place – the place I questioned whether or not that was acceptable or not.
I believe the broader challenge is now we’ve got two circumstances of former White Houses as they pack as much as go away mishandling labeled data. So, we’ve got a authorized overview right here by the particular counsel. We’re going to have a harm evaluation on these paperwork by the intelligence group. I believe we want a separate, bipartisan job drive that appears at how White Houses deal with labeled data all through an administration, however significantly on the finish. And I believe they should make suggestions going ahead in order that these paperwork are dealt with with a lot larger rigor.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Much larger rigor. What does that imply, harsher penalties?
MICHAEL MORELL: No, I believe it signifies that a particular group of people, maybe from the — partly from the intelligence group, but additionally from the National Security Council, must undergo each field that leaves the White House on the finish of an administration to verify there aren’t labeled paperwork in it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Professor, you realize, among the critics, and positively a part of the political framing of that is the dearth of transparency with the general public, which we talked about with Ed O’Keefe earlier.
It was CBS News that broke this story. And then the federal government acknowledged it. Is that acceptable? Do you suppose there’s something legally to again up the White House argument that they only could not say something in any respect?
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Right. I imply there is a political query and a authorized query. I’m not going to –
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m asking on the authorized –
LUCIUS OUTLAW: On the authorized aspect, no, it – what issues –
MARGARET BRENNAN: They may have.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: They – they might have with the general public. What issues most legally is, what did they impart and when to the correct authorities authorities? Was there a delay there? Was there an try to impede any form of investigation? That is what issues legally.
Now, what they are saying within the public might make clear intent if there’s another fees, however legally I do not suppose that places them in any jeopardy that they selected to attend to inform the general public one thing they already advised the correct authorities officers.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I ask you that as a result of we frequently hear on the White House podium, that is about course of. We could not go outdoors of the method as a result of it may impede an ongoing investigation.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Right. And they — two issues might be true. One, they do not wish to impede an investigation, but additionally they do not wish to influence or negatively influence themselves politically or midterms or something of that nature.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Two issues might be true.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right. Two issues might be true, completely. It is Washington. There is quite a lot of grey and there’s a lot of nuance.
But, Larry Pfeiffer, within the case of Trump, it was greater than 300 pages of – of labeled data. As we talked about, larger ranges at — and a few sensitivity, extended authorized forwards and backwards. But to what diploma does that matter versus that query of intent? You know, you are giving the president the good thing about the doubt that this was an accident. The former president was accused of – of doing many issues probably with this data.
LARRY PFEIFFER: Well, I believe the amount of the fabric may really recommend intent. I imply this was 300 labeled paperwork amongst 11,000 different paperwork that had been taken from the White House. That – that simply does not occur accidentally. That had — there must be some intent there.
Now, I — when this story first broke, I used to be one who really was considerably prepared to present some advantage of the doubt as a result of I’ve seen these accidents occur prior to now. But as that story unfolded, it grew to become fairly clear that — and given the obstruction, given the reluctance to cooperate, it suggests there could also be, you realize, extra prison points at play with the Trump state of affairs.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And, Mike Morell, we talked about this as effectively, that the dearth of readability in some methods, by way of the flexibility to declassified data. I’ve been speaking in latest days to attorneys, too, about when does the vp get to declassify versus a president.
In your view, does there must be extra form of readability on what a president can declassify and when?
MICHAEL MORELL: So, a president can declassify nearly something. Not the whole lot. But nearly something that is been labeled by the manager department. The vp doesn’t have that authority. He’s not claiming that on this case.
I simply wish to return, Margaret, to – to what you mentioned on the very starting. In each of those circumstances, we’ve got some top-secret paperwork. That signifies that those that labeled these paperwork imagine that in the event that they get into the flawed palms there may very well be exceptionally grave harm to nationwide safety. So, we’ve got to remain centered on this by way of – of those particular person circumstances, however how will we forestall this from occurring going ahead?
MARGARET BRENNAN: All proper, Mike Morell, thanks in your evaluation.
Professor, Larry, thanks as effectively for becoming a member of us.
LARRY PFEIFFER: Thank you.
LUCIUS OUTLAW: Thank you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We can be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We are joined now by Chris Whipple, writer of a brand new e book concerning the first two years of the Biden administration. It’s referred to as “The Fight of His Life: Inside Joe Biden’s White House.”
Good morning to you.
CHRIS WHIPPLE (Author, “The Fight of His Life”): Good to be right here.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And you spent quite a lot of time engaged on this e book over the previous two years. And you met quite a lot of these characters who’re so near Joe Biden, the person and now the president. One of them, Bob Bauer, who’s now the president’s legal professional in regard to this story we have been speaking about for many of the present with labeled paperwork. He additionally occurs to be married to one of many president’s closest advisers.
What do you make of how that is – is taking part in out? And why is Bauer the person to defend him right here?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Well, let me come again to Bob Bauer in a second.
But I believe that this can be a actual downside as a result of there’s simply this fixed drip, drip, drip of knowledge that comes out concerning the paperwork. And it is shocking, to some extent, as a result of I spent two years speaking to nearly all of Joe Biden’s inside circle. And normally they are much more proficient at dealing with these crises. I can inform you, that is probably the most battened down, disciplined, leak-proof White House in years, as I believe you realize. So it is – so it is somewhat bit shocking. But I believe – and you may sympathize once they say that, look, something we are saying may very well be contradicted later. We cannot get forward of the method. But they actually need to boost their recreation right here, I believe, as a result of this actually goes to the center of Joe Biden’s best asset, arguably, which is belief. I imply possibly not for a 30 % to 40 % of the American folks, however for Democrats and independents. And that is actually at stake right here.
Bob Bauer is a – is an interesting alternative to do that. He’s – he is a really brilliant man. I’ve interviewed him for the e book. He tells some nice tales in it concerning the transition. And I believe that Bauer is a – is a really sensible lawyer and really cautious. He’s not going to need the White House to get on the market and discuss quite a bit about what is going on on. And as you famous, he is – he is married to one in all Joe Biden’s most influential political advisers, Anita Dunn. So, you actually need to surprise what it is like round that dinner desk. If I do know Bob Bauer, he might not even be speaking to her about this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s a really tight-knit group across the president.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: It is.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And has been for years.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How did one thing like this occur?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Well, you realize, look, everyone’s baffled by it. And you – and you need to surprise if you happen to had been to look among the different presidential properties of different presidents whether or not we would be discovering the identical factor. I believe Mike Morell’s proper, there’s received to be a a lot better course of. It’s only a sloppy course of, I believe.
But, once more, I — substantively, I believe that is actually severe in a method as a result of I believe that it now turns into tough, if not inconceivable, to carry fees on the Mar-a-Lago paperwork case. And the explanation – the explanation I say that’s as a result of it doesn’t matter what anyone says about this being solely concerning the information and the legal guidelines, it’s inarguably a political resolution with huge political ramifications. Jack Smith and Merrick Garland need to be excited about a jury, selecting a jury, and whether or not that jury goes to suppose that what Trump did is all that egregious if paperwork hold popping up each different day in Joe Biden’s residences.
MARGARET BRENNAN: At this level in a presidency you usually see officers rotate out. I do know you spoke to Chief of Staff Ron Klain extensively. Is he staying on? And ought to we anticipate different modifications?
CHRIS WHIPPLE: That’s a extremely huge query for Joe Biden. Look, he is had a – a really profitable two-year presidency, significantly – I imply the second 12 months has been some of the consequential years for any president in – in fashionable historical past. The first 12 months was – was more durable. We can speak about that. But I believe —
MARGARET BRENNAN: I assume you are speaking about Afghanistan.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Yes, Afghanistan specifically. But I believe that Joe Biden – Joe Biden may have a really robust resolution to make if Ron Klain decides to maneuver on any time quickly as a result of these are very massive sneakers to fill. Ron Klain is — arguably belongs in elite firm, James Baker, Leon Panetta, among the greatest chiefs of workers round. So, I believe it may be a extremely, actually necessary resolution.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They did not tweet like he does. He’s very lively on Twitter.
So, let’s go to one thing severe right here, Afghanistan. That was an enormous black mark on the Biden administration.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: It was.
MARGARET BRENNAN: To actually have such a chaotic withdrawal on one thing they only actually did not anticipate to go sideways prefer it did.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: I believe – I believe this can be a story of two presidencies, the primary 12 months and the second 12 months. The first 12 months overshadowed by Afghanistan, though he had quite a lot of accomplishments that first 12 months. It was chaotic, God is aware of, watching it on tv. But what I found and report in my e book is that behind the scenes there was quite a lot of drama.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: And Tony Blinken, the secretary of state, advised me in no unsure phrases that the whole lot we did was primarily based on a fatally flawed intelligence evaluation that the Afghan authorities would final for 18 months. This was news to CIA Director Bill Burns once I sat down with him and talked to him at size about it. He mentioned, look, if you happen to pulled out two legs of the stool, as he put it, American forces and contractors, we — we predicted that that might collapse in a short time.
So, Afghanistan – and — and – and I even have this excellent story that, I imply, Joe Biden shared with me what it was like on the worst day of his presidency, what he referred to as the toughest of the onerous days when 13 service members had been killed by the suicide bombing in Kabul. Afterwards, Biden needed to confront — needed to attempt to console the households of these fallen troopers. Some of them blamed him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Some of them had been upset as a result of he invoked his son Beau. This was personally actually wrenching for Joe Biden. And it is a – it is a, I believe, an excellent perception into him.
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s a compelling — it is a compelling e book. Thank you very a lot.
CHRIS WHIPPLE: Thanks a lot, Margaret.
We’ll be again in a second.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Russia launched one other wave of missile assaults on Ukraine on Saturday. Explosions had been heard in Kyiv this weekend as missiles rained down close by, killing about two dozen folks in Dnipro and knocking out crucial infrastructure in at the very least two main cities. Kyiv is looking on the west to supply them with superior air protection programs.
Debora Patta has the most recent.
(BEGIN VT)
DEBORA PATTA (voice over): A contemporary spherical of missiles unleashed this weekend smashed right into a residential condominium block in Dnipro. A reminder Russian- type, this can be a warfare declared largely on civilians.
Rescue employees paused to pay attention for survivors at the hours of darkness. Is somebody alive, they shout in unison? Among the useless, youngsters. Among the residing, this lady, 23-year-old Ana Stasiashvitz (ph), who survived by hiding within the lavatory of what was as soon as her seventh flooring condominium.
The strikes come on the week of intense fight within the east the place Ukraine is combating to carry onto Soledar. Russia claims the city is underneath its management. Ukraine disputes this, saying Moscow is attempting to grind down its forces utilizing mercenaries from the Russian paramilitary group Wagner.
They’ve had quite a lot of losses, Ukrainian soldier Vadim (ph) mentioned. They’re attacking in waves and strolling over the useless our bodies.
Wagner insists its fighters, not the common Russian military, seized Soledar, a declare that is led to an inner turf warfare in Russia over who ought to get credit score for a victory right here.
But Vladimir Putin desperately wants a win. He’s did not take a single city since July. Wagner’s chief, Russian oligarch Yevgeny Prigojine, made a triumphant go to to Soledar yesterday handy out medals to his males. They captured it in two weeks, he bragged. They’re most likely probably the most skilled military on the planet.
The fact is they’re convicts recruited from prisons throughout Russia, pardoned in change for combating on the entrance line, fueling fears that arming hardened criminals may result in extra battlefield atrocities says Ukrainian army knowledgeable Olexander Colvalinco (ph).
Convicts don’t have any ethical line to cross, he advised us. Since they arrived on the battlefield, warfare crimes have elevated.
(END VT)
DEBORA PATTA (on digicam): Allied assist stays robust with the U.Okay. changing into the primary western nation to pledge tanks to Kyiv. Other NATO members at the moment are underneath strain to comply with go well with.
Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Debora Patta, thanks.
Here within the U.S., there’s somewhat little bit of a brilliant spot in our financial system as this December’s Consumer Price Index signifies that inflation is slowing for the sixth straight month thanks, in most half, to falling power costs. Now, the Fed is anticipated to proceed to boost rates of interest, however given the brand new information, the scale and tempo of these will increase stays an open query.
We’ll be proper again.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: If you’ll be able to’t watch FACE THE NATION stay, you’ll be able to set your DVR. We’re additionally accessible by our CBS and Paramount Plus apps and we’re replayed on our CBS News streaming community all through the day on Sundays.
That’s it for us at the moment. Thank you all for watching. Until subsequent week, for FACE THE NATION, I’m Margaret Brennan.