This week on “Intelligence Matters,” Michael Morell speaks with former CIA chief operations officer Andrew Makridis about his 37-year profession on the CIA. Makridis displays on his entrance row seat to historical past as a presidential briefer to President George H.W. Bush. He presents his evaluation on how the CIA has modified and improved because the Iraq WMD intelligence failure and Wikileaks breach.
HIGHLIGHTS:
- The PDB: “We spent almost an hour a day in the briefing from 8 to 9, the last part of it was mostly terrorism, but it’s an hour of the president’s day. And you really felt like you were really contributing. And to be honest with you, I don’t know what you thought about it Michael, about being a briefer, but the days that I thought I was successful or that that the agency was successful were days where you created a discussion.”
- What went incorrect at CIA with Iraq weapons of mass destruction? “When I looked at some of the WMD parts of Iraq- that describes the trap. We had people who really knew an area very, very deeply but maybe were unwilling to look left and right of that to say what other possibilities could there be … What changed post-Iraq WMD was really starting to take a look at how do we do analysis, how do we make sure we look at all the alternatives, how do we build that into how people do analysis as opposed to an afterthought or a nice to have?”
- Cybersecurity at CIA post-WikiLeaks: “For the longest time we operated on this, we have a moat and a drawbridge. And once the drawbridge is down, you get over the moat, you’re in the castle. And that’s really not the way anything operates today. If you take a look at the world of cybersecurity, it’s a zero trust where they’re inspecting you at every moment, not physically, but every time you’re querying for information. So it’s moving in that direction. I’m happy to say that in the several years since that time, huge progress has been made.”
Download, charge and subscribe right here: iTunes, Spotify and Stitcher.
INTELLIGENCE MATTERS WITH ANDY MAKRIDIS
PRODUCER: PAULINA SMOLINSKI
MICHAEL MORELL: Andy, welcome to Intelligence Matters. It’s improbable to have you ever on the present.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Thanks, Michael.
MICHAEL MORELL: I’ve been wanting to do that for fairly a while. And you simply retired from the CIA. Your final job there was the quantity three on the company, so-called chief working officer. So congratulations on an important profession.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Thank you.37 years glided by fairly quick.
MICHAEL MORELL: 37, wow, I solely have 33, so you bought me there. So what I actually wish to do is focus in your profession, as a result of I believe it has been such an fascinating one and I actually assume our listeners shall be concerned about it. And if we now have a while we are able to speak about a few of the problems with the day. If we do not have time, we are able to at all times have you ever again once more. So I wish to begin by asking how did you find yourself on the company and what was your first job?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: I got here to the company as a scholar, as a grad fellow. I obtained my bachelor’s diploma in aerospace engineering, and I used to be engaged on my grasp’s diploma in pc science. And I used to be doing a instructing assistant gig. And someday once I got here into faculty, there was somewhat word in my inbox. That’s not an digital inbox, its the quaint wood field. And it mentioned, hey, there’s an data session tomorrow evening. The authorities company thought you would possibly wish to attend. It was all kind of very mysterious. And they by no means actually named the federal government company. And so I assumed, okay, nicely, what the heck? So I went to the session and it was like a 90 minute data session. And it was most likely 50 minutes earlier than they really uttered these three initials. CIA. It was very totally different time interval within the 80’s than right now. Today, we exit to universities and put a banner out. Here’s our desk, come discuss to us.
I got here in as a scholar in by means of the CIA scholar applications, which Michael, as you most likely keep in mind, is only a tremendous strategy to get publicity to the company, see if it is the correct match for you. They can even see in case you’re a great match for them. And it is one thing that is been occurring for many years and it is going robust. So an effective way to enter the company. So after doing time as a scholar over that summer time, then I got here again as a full time worker. And what I did, my preliminary job was deploying pc programs to our area areas. And so once more, that is the mid eighties, so innovative then in comparison with innovative right now is somewhat bit nearly laughable. But these had been a few of the first computer systems that we had been placing out within the area. And in order that was fascinating. But that developed into somewhat extra of cyber operations. Very rudimentary. Again as a result of we’re speaking about kind of the mannequin T of computer systems versus the Teslas that folks have right now.
And there was no Internet, at the very least not a public Internet. It was the analysis factor amongst universities. So nothing was accomplished remotely as a result of you did not have that type of entry. So what I ended up doing was exploiting individuals’s computer systems, particularly those that they carried round with them. I believe at the moment they had been known as transportable versus laptops as a result of a few of these issues weighed over 5 kilos. So this wasn’t one thing that you simply simply picked up and carried round simply. You go locations the place individuals don’t need you to be, and but you are taking issues they do not need you to have. So it was a extremely fascinating time interval and a few very fascinating jobs as an introduction to the group.
MICHAEL MORELL: Andy, was there private danger concerned in what you had been doing?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: That’s an fascinating query. Yes, there was. But let me simply put it in somewhat little bit of context right here. Let’s name it danger with somewhat r in comparison with danger with a capital R, which, you and I do know officers on the company take daily in harmful areas, assembly with harmful individuals in battle zones. So I wish to ensure that we get this in the correct context. Yes, there was some danger concerned as a result of, once more, you had been in locations the place individuals did not need you to be and clearly you had been stealing data. So you needed to be cautious. In any of these sorts of jobs, there’s often occasions when you might have your coronary heart beat a bit quicker as a result of you might have a little bit of a detailed name. The fascinating factor, Michael, is that at the very least for me, you do not give it some thought in the intervening time. You’re simply making an attempt to get accomplished what you bought to get accomplished. It is not until afterwards that it kind of sinks in like, oh my gosh, that was fairly shut. I might have been in bother if issues had gone another way. So typically the nerves do not strike you until later.
MICHAEL MORELL: For certain. So Andy, you then, you transitioned to being an analyst. Why the swap? And what sort of points did you’re employed on early in your analytic profession?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: The switch- I spent my first 4 years on the company doing what I simply described, and it was actually dwelling out of a suitcase, which was enjoyable and thrilling at first. But after some time it grew to become increasingly more tough. You go to locations that I might inform individuals you sometimes would not go to on trip. And the best way this labored on the time was there is a huge whiteboard within the workplace and you’d come again from one project and you’d search for your title on the board to determine the place you’d go subsequent. And typically you had per week, typically two weeks, typically you had three days. And in order that’s obtained to be an intense rhythm. And I needed to attempt one thing totally different. I mentioned on the high right here, I’ve an engineering diploma. And so I assumed, perhaps I ought to attempt to determine the place I can apply that extra instantly. And so I moved to do weapons evaluation, and this was nonetheless the time of the Soviet Union. So it was weapons evaluation of the Soviet Union, and specifically, it was Soviet house and their offensive house capabilities. At that point, once more, within the late eighties, the Soviets had a really strong house program. They had nicely over 100 satellites in house someplace on the order of 70% of them had been army for army functions. They had been weaponizing house in some ways. Some individuals could keep in mind that they had copied the house shuttle and had been making ready to launch that. I believe they name it the Buron, which I believe is snowstorm in Russian. They examined weapons in house. So it is a actually busy interval. So I spent my time doing that till, in fact, 1991. And then, Soviet Union went poof. It was gone straight away. And that is once I kind of moved over to do extra of the proliferation work.
MICHAEL MORELL: And you probably did some work on North Korea, appropriate?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: That’s the place I spent most of my time on North Korea’s missile program. And that was additionally changing into a extremely strong program. It had actually began within the eighties after which by the early to mid nineties that they had made some important advances and so they had been on a fairly hefty drumbeat about launching missiles. At the identical time they had been making progress on their nuclear program. You had the mixture of these two and swiftly North Korea turns into much more regarding than it might simply usually be.
MICHAEL MORELL: So remind me, Andy, the place the North Koreans obtained the know-how to make these missiles.
ANDY MAKRIDIS:Most of their capabilities- they had been educated in Russia, Soviet Union. Numerous them went to universities there or to particular coaching academies. So that is the place they realized their missile know-how. And then they had been in the marketplace buying elements. If you took a take a look at a lot of their early missiles, you possibly can see their Soviet heritage. And in order that’s primarily the locations the place they went. And then definitely after the dissolution of the Soviet Union, there was that problem the place there have been Soviet scientists mainly for rent, on the lookout for work. And the North Koreans took benefit of a few of these alternatives and introduced Russian missile and nuclear engineers into North Korea to additional advance their applications.
MICHAEL MORELL: So if I keep in mind accurately, it was throughout this time that you simply first met someone that you simply and I each admire very a lot, George Tenet, who was the deputy director of CIA after which the director of CIA. Is that proper?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Right. He was the deputy once I met him.
MICHAEL MORELL: And what did you consider him? He’s an even bigger than life character.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: When this briefing obtained scheduled to speak about some North Korea points, it is a huge deal, to take a seat down and spend time with the deputy director or the director of the CIA for that matter in fact. It was myself and a few different individuals from my crew. We should have spent a stable week making ready for it. And it was all materials we knew. But swiftly, you are taking part in at a unique degree. So we spent a few week going by means of the briefing, from dry runs to what sorts of questions might he ask, so on and so forth. So we had a briefing and so they went fantastic. And then as we completed, George pointed at me and mentioned, are you able to keep again? And you are not likely certain when that’s the first time.
MICHAEL MORELL: Good or dangerous proper?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Could be good or dangerous. It’s just like the trainer saying, maintain on. Everyone left the room. He’s a very- everybody who has met him is aware of this, he’s a really heat and cordial particular person. So he checked out me and he simply stared at me for a second. And then he says to me, Τι νομίζετε. Which is Greek for, what do you assume? And so I did not put together for this query. So it was each asking me what I assumed concerning the dialogue as a result of it was a controversial problem we had been speaking about. But it is also a fast take a look at in my Greek to make sure-
MICHAEL MORELL: Make certain you’re for actual that you’re a actual Greek
ANDY MAKRIDIS: And I handed. Yeah. So George as I mentioned is such a heat and disarming man. If I might simply digress for one second, Michael. I had him come again in. This was just a few years in the past. To speak about one thing. And we went to the cafeteria to have lunch as a result of we needed to go to the cafeteria. And as we had been sitting there, two of the those who work within the cafeteria that had been there ceaselessly got here out to say hey to him. So I believe that provides you a way for the way George connects with individuals of every type. I discovered him to be actually intuitive, clearly very good. He requested laborious questions, however they had been truthful questions. And the nub of the questions at all times cuts to the center of what the difficulty was. They weren’t superfluous questions. He’s very strategic in his considering. You can inform he is piecing issues collectively. And then I suppose perhaps lastly, particularly if you first get to know me, I had the sense that he was not solely assessing what I mentioned, however he was assessing me. In the sense of, does that is man know what he is speaking about. Is he comfy with what he is saying or is he simply studying a script. All these these different components that go into belief constructing.
MICHAEL MORELL: And for these listeners who do not know, George is Greek and he is very happy with his Greek heritage. Hence the story that you simply simply informed. Andy you quickly turn out to be a supervisor of analysts on missiles and nuclear points. And then you might have this kind of out-of-body expertise the place you turn out to be an government assistant for John McLaughlin, who’s then the deputy director to George Tenet, who’s by that point director. And I wish to kind of ask you, what does an government assistant do for a senior company officer? What was the day after day like? And what did you be taught in that have?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: It was an enchanting job. In some methods, you turn out to be somewhat little bit of the alter ego for the individual that you are working for, making an attempt to place your self of their footwear to attempt to perceive what it’s that they want, when do they want it. So you turn out to be a little bit of a filter. You’re typically the entrance door for those who have to see your your principal, whoever that particular person is. You’re additionally an organizer, as a result of as from these jobs, it is a hearth hose. You find yourself spending plenty of time doing triage and making an attempt to grasp, of all of those vital issues, which issues rise to the highest and what do I’ve to ensure that my principal sees. In this case, it was John McLaughlin.
That’s a difficult factor since you even have to determine when to indicate him issues or her as a result of in case you’re displaying one thing to him two weeks early. It’s going to get misplaced and forgotten. If you present it to him the day after. Well, clearly, you missed the boat. So it is kind of making an attempt to get that timing proper and in addition making an attempt to actually perceive how she or he thinks and works. People work in another way. Some individuals wish to see numerous materials. Some wish to see somewhat bit. They need you to filter roughly, relying on their private likes and dislikes. So it’s a must to determine that out fairly fast and it’s a must to turn out to be fairly fast. You need to be proper. There is a little bit of a break in interval the place hopefully you might have a principal who provides you somewhat little bit of slack like John McLaughlin definitely did with me.
The different factor that I discovered myself doing that I’m certain that you simply did if you labored upstairs, Michael, is if you go into these conferences, you attempt to learn the room and also you attempt to kind of determine, is there something that is not being mentioned? And why is not that being mentioned? And you then begin to do some behind the scenes work to determine, what is going on on right here, or is there one thing extra to this? I believe constructing a community, typically perhaps job one. Because there’s the org chart method of doing issues and looking out individuals up within the telephone e book and all that type of factor. But you and I each know that is not likely the best way issues work. You have the correct individuals, the correct contacts, and you may determine what is going on on throughout the company as a result of in lots of instances, the principals kind of you to get an thought of what are individuals considering, what is going on on. To get to the gist, as a result of as you get at these jobs and the extra senior the job the much less contact and it is laborious to determine issues out. I labored for John. Michael, each you and I do know John McLaughlin. He is definitely probably the greatest, an actual gentleman. He informed me his phrases of recommendation to me once I began had been, Andy, I simply wish to inform you that you’ve one factor that you must keep in mind above all else. And I mentioned, certain John, what’s that? And he mentioned, someday you will be launched again into the final inhabitants and you will not have safety of the Warden. So conduct your self accordingly.
MICHAEL MORELL: That’s good recommendation. I want George had given me that recommendation once I was his EA.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: I’ve to say, plenty of this obtained put to the take a look at on 9/11 as a result of I used to be up there working for John on 9/11. And he was in a VTC, a video convention in one other room. And after the primary aircraft struck, we had been like, what? Was that an accident? What occurred? And then the second aircraft struck and it was like, okay, now we all know it isn’t an accident. So I needed to go to a different room down the corridor and discover him. And individuals had been already starting to speak about it. And then I noticed the monumental selections that they needed to make. George and John proper then and there. There’s no time to, let’s have a gathering to debate, will we evacuate the constructing? Who will we inform that has to remain? Do we go away the seventh flooring, which we did, as a result of that is essentially the most weak place you might be proper on the highest flooring of the constructing. And so a few of these issues that I realized alongside the way- the networks grew to become vastly beneficial as a result of at that time, you are performing on intuition and also you’re calling and speaking to individuals. There’s no time to begin flipping by means of telephone books to search out who’s the chief of that or who’s a deputy over there.
MICHAEL MORELL: George Tenet then asks you to switch me because the day by day intelligence briefer for President Bush. Do you keep in mind your first day once I took you on what was my final day and launched you to President Bush?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Oh, my gosh. It’s indelibly burned into my mind.
MICHAEL MORELL: Mine too, really. Go forward. Tell the story.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: So up till that day. You’re proper, I hadn’t really met the president but. I helped you put together within the morning and that type of stuff. And what everybody stored saying, together with you, was simply, nice transient. The President- you’ll love briefing him.
MICHAEL MORELL: He’s an important man. He’s good. He’s very nice.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Yeah, precisely. So I’m like, that is cakewalk, proper? And so, in fact, we confirmed up that day. And that was the day that you simply needed to inform him that we did not get Osama bin Laden in Tora Bora.
MICHAEL MORELL: And that he escaped throughout the border.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: That he escaped throughout the border. And his response was robust, is that the best way to place it?
MICHAEL MORELL: Angry, deeply pissed off.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Deeply pissed off, rightly so. And I do not know, Michael, as a result of I could not see my face, however I’m certain you possibly can. What was going by means of my thoughts was, oh, my God, what have I gotten into right here?
MICHAEL MORELL: Because one of many issues that you simply did not say was he blamed me initially, proper? He mentioned, how did you let this occur? And I’m considering I wasn’t wherever close to the place. What are you going to do about this? And he met you proper within the a lot broader time period. But yeah, no, he shot the messenger.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Yes, I do not forget that. I used to be considering, Oh my God, I’m going to be collateral right here someplace.
MICHAEL MORELL: So what had been your impressions of him? You briefed him for a few years. What had been your impressions of him?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: I assumed, to begin with, when you spend time, you notice, okay, I perceive now how you bought to turn out to be president. Much like George, he requested actually good questions. And you possibly can inform that he was piecing collectively a puzzle of what actions am I going to take? He’s obtained the enter from the intelligence group, however he additionally has numerous different individuals speaking to him, some individuals calling him personally, international leaders telling him issues. So I discovered him to be fairly astute. As he was weighing these items out, since you might type of- you possibly can kind of see what he was wrestling with. In the entire time of three years that I did that job, essentially the most tough day, Michael, was that first morning.
The remainder of time we had Afghanistan and Iraq, Iraq WMD, all that. And the president was very gracious. We spent nearly an hour a day within the briefing from 8 to 9, the final a part of it was principally terrorism, but it surely’s an hour of the president’s day. And you actually felt such as you had been actually contributing. And to be sincere with you, I do not know what you considered it Michael, about being a briefer, however the days that I assumed I used to be profitable or that that the company was profitable had been days the place you created a dialogue. Not that they at all times agreed. Just saying, they agree right now. They just like the e book. That would not actually inform me. It’s the times the place all of the sudden, even when it was like we do not agree, however you bought it. You had a dialogue going. So you realized I scratched a problem. I’ve raised a problem they could not have thought by means of absolutely or there’s an angle right here that they did not kind of get to or see. But I discovered the president to be very intuitive and a extremely good choose. And I can inform you on the finish right here about my final day, which kind of reveals this intuitive piece.
MICHAEL MORELL: Go forward inform us about that.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: My final day or really was the day I used to be going to inform him I used to be leaving. It was after Christmas, and we had been flying right down to Texas, and we had been on the airplane. And I completed the briefing as a result of we took the briefing on the airplane. And then after we completed, I kind of closed my e book and I mentioned, Mr. President, if I can simply discuss to you for a minute, I’ve another factor to debate with you. So I had by no means accomplished that earlier than.
So he checked out me and he mentioned, is that this the I’m leaving dialogue? I used to be like, oh God. And it was a really tough dialogue as a result of he requested questions like, is there a greater job at CIA than this one? And so fortunately, Andy Card got here in and rescued me.
MICHAEL MORELL: That’s improbable. That is so George Bush. Andy, after you completed the briefing job, you took over the analytic group that lined the technical features of nuclear weapons applications world wide. And this was simply within the aftermath of our failure, our analytic failure on Iraq weapons of mass destruction. And simply in a short time, I’d prefer to get your evaluation of what you assume went incorrect in Iraq and the way did we be taught from our errors and the way did it change the evaluation accomplished on the CIA?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: As you and I do know, each on the analytic and operational aspect, we did not do an important job. We let the president down, the nation down. We definitely let George and John down as a result of we simply did not have the rigor. And I believe what occurred on the analytic aspect is, if I might simply rapidly summarize it in a single in a method. There was a e book just a few years again by a man named Phil Tetlock. He is a professor at UPenn, I consider. And it is known as one thing like Expert Political Judgment. But in his e book, he references one thing really from an historic Greek play a few fox and a hedgehog. And the phrase is a fox is aware of many tips. A hedgehog is aware of one good one. Tetlock took that and began speaking about consultants. And consultants are hedgehogs, proper? They know one factor and so they comprehend it very well. And he kind of characterizes the perils typically or the pitfalls you may fall into in case you’re an knowledgeable, if you simply know that one factor.
And once I checked out a few of the WMD components of Iraq- that describes the lure. We had individuals who actually knew an space very, very deeply however perhaps had been unwilling to look left and proper of that to say what different prospects might there be. In their protection. there was, from the earlier Gulf War, we knew that Saddam was hiding elements for a nuclear program. We discovered it. And so it is it is a little bit like, you see on this courtroom dramas the place the choose says to the jury, disregard what you simply heard. And in fact the jury cannot. And so you have obtained that previous historical past in these individuals’s minds. And then it is simple to start to suit all the things into that image with out listening to the foxes, as an instance, who’re saying, there’s different prospects right here. And so I believe that is what actually occurred.
MICHAEL MORELL: That’s an effective way to consider it
ANDY MAKRIDIS: What modified post-Iraq WMD was actually beginning to try how will we do evaluation, how will we be certain that we take a look at all of the alternate options, how will we construct that into how individuals do evaluation versus an afterthought or a pleasant to have? Let’s make {that a} requirement for all the foremost points that we’re following. There are numerous instruments, known as structured analytic strategies and there is plenty of them. And you may apply them, relying on no matter problem you are engaged on, so that you simply start to color the total image. Doesn’t imply you are going to be proper. But at the very least you might have created the envelope during which you assume we’re within the scenario that we’re in. And so I believe that is the large change. And I believe the work that comes out of the company is considerably higher due to these adjustments.
MICHAEL MORELL: Yeah, I agree. I agree 100% with that. Andy, one of many points that adopted Iraq by just some years, and also you had been concerned on this, was what we thought was the invention of a clandestine nuclear energy plant in Syria. And I’m questioning, how powerful was it to persuade the White House that we had this proper. That this was a covert nuclear reactor, after we obtained Iraq so incorrect just some years earlier?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: The first response was precisely as you describe, nicely, you had been incorrect about Iraq. How are you assured you are proper about this? So this was just some years after. But I believe one of many huge variations is in these few years, the Directorate of Intelligence, now the Directorate of Analysis, put much more rigor into the issues we simply mentioned. And so we did one of the vital thorough scrubs that I’ve definitely ever participated in or seen of all the probabilities. So this constructing was out within the jap desert in Syria, close to a spot known as Dolorosa and close to the Euphrates, nothing on the market. The constructing was inbuilt a wadi. In the depressions, you may really see it from the highway. Not a lot of a highway. You obtained a development of a constructing. And by the point we really noticed the constructing, it had what we name curtain partitions. But the constructing seemed fairly innocuous. If I checked out it right now, it seems like a knowledge middle. It’s obtained the identical type of development with only a few home windows. You know, it is that type of look to it. Now, in fact, it was a bit suspicious. There was no energy. What type of plant are you constructing with no energy to it? There was a pump home being constructed down close to the river, the Euphrates. Clearly to run water backwards and forwards. And so that you begin to consider cooling immediately. And then we had been in a position to purchase images of the within. And as quickly because the nuclear analysts that labored for me noticed that, they mentioned that is Yongbyon. Yongbyon, on your listeners, it is a North Korean nuclear facility. And so we put all that collectively. And I believe we had been in a position to make a compelling case. But all of it kind of rested on the truth that we had accomplished all that work within the intervening couple of years. To carry that rigor that we simply mentioned into the evaluation.
MICHAEL MORELL: I ought to inform my listeners that the CIA really produced a video of all of this evaluation and put it out publicly when President Bush introduced what we had discovered and after the Israelis had really destroyed the reactor, and so they can really go to the Internet and Google CIA presentation on Syrian nuclear reactor and so they can really take a look at a bit of CIA evaluation, which which is a fairly uncommon factor. So Andy, you then had a wide range of senior management posts, most involving evaluation of weapons work after which the CIA’s personal science and know-how applications. But one of many assignments you had as a senior officer was working, not a technical workplace, however a regional workplace, really, the Office of Asian and Latin American Analysis. And I simply questioned how totally different it was managing political analysts and management analysts and economists in comparison with scientists and engineers.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: That’s an important query. There’s one actually vital distinction between them and and it’s due to the type of work they do. So once I ran the Asia Pacific Latin America Africa workplace, as you talked about, there’s political scientists, economists, management analysts, they take care of ambiguity in a a lot better method than engineers. Engineers are pushed to unravel for the reply. And if there’s ambiguity, they’re going to put in a security reality or regardless of the case is. But they’re pushed to unravel as a result of most engineering issues are solvable. Unfortunately for political analysts, typically these should not solvable issues. So they should get comfy with dwelling in a world of ambiguity, which engineers hate.
MICHAEL MORELL: Interesting.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: You get a stark distinction between the 2 of them if you discuss to them, as a result of like I mentioned, engineers offers you a solution that may be very literal typically. And so typically you have to watch out about what questions you are asking them. On the opposite aspect, with the regional analysts they are often extra broad and so they can provide you a broader set of solutions, however oftentimes they do not provide the reply. So that is what struck me essentially the most for managing these two. And so once I went again from the Asia workplace again to run the technical workplace, I talked to my engineers. I mentioned, you guys obtained to get somewhat extra comfy with ambiguity as a result of I’ve simply watch how that works. And it is vital as a result of we’re not going to have the solutions to all these questions. And it is a very tough transition for somebody who’s used to only doing the mathematics.
MICHAEL MORELL: Andy, one of many senior assignments you had was main an evaluation of WikiLeaks and the danger it posed to our nationwide safety and to the company itself. And I simply wish to ask you what that was like, as a result of that is fairly totally different. Contrary to what some individuals would possibly consider, this isn’t a media group or one thing that claims to be a media group just isn’t the main target of the company’s work.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: We had a breach. And I believe one of many prosecutors in New York, I believe he known as it one of the vital brazen and damaging acts of espionage in U.S. historical past. So it was an insider problem. A big quantity of fabric was taken out of the company. And so there was two components to this. There was the who did it. And that was the purview of the counterintelligence of us and the FBI as a result of it was a criminal offense. And then there was the what occurred, how did it occur, and the way will we be certain that it would not occur once more half. And that half fell to the group of those who I used to be main.
It’s kind of a human nature problem, proper? We get pressed for doing issues and doing issues rapidly. And so we started to take shortcuts. And not solely do individuals within the company do that, however individuals basically do that. For expediency sake, they’re going to make issues simpler on themselves. And for a company that was speculated to watch out to not do this, we fell into that lure. So by doing so, we made it so much simpler for somebody who had sick intent to get plenty of materials as a result of not all of the watertight doorways had been closed, a wide range of issues that occurred.
For the longest time we operated on this, we now have a moat and a drawbridge. And as soon as the drawbridge is down, you recover from the moat, you are within the citadel. And that is actually not the best way something operates right now. If you check out the world of cybersecurity, it is a zero belief the place they’re inspecting you at each second, not bodily, however each time you are querying for data. So it is transferring in that route. I’m completely happy to say that within the a number of years since that point, big progress has been made, I believe, on the company to actually be certain that we lock down, safe our programs, to have the ability to do issues rapidly and securely. It’s not a commerce. I believe for some time there we had been it as a commerce. We can get it accomplished quick, however we now have to take shortcuts. Well, that does not work.
So I believe studying learn how to function in a safe method and nonetheless getting the mission essential issues accomplished is vital. Let’s face it, the group the place the data got here was so pressed as a result of there have been so many calls for on their time, they kind of felt like they had been in a nook. And there have been methods round this. And I believe the programs and the and the adjustments that the company has made since then have actually helped make this a way more safe surroundings whereas nonetheless getting the job accomplished.
MICHAEL MORELL: Andy, lastly you find yourself because the company’s chief working officer. This so-called COO, which is non-public group, do not name it COO they name it C-O-O. I simply thought I’d point out that. So what does the COO do on the CIA?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: It’s an enormous vary, proper? And Michael, this very well. It’s all the things from the strategic finances. What are the longer term tech wants of the company, the way forward for the workforce? What’s the strategic plan? What are the impediments to getting issues accomplished all the best way right down to what is going on on with parking, which is at all times a factor.
MICHAEL MORELL: And house.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: And that was subsequent. I used to be going to say house contained in the constructing. And persons are at all times jockeying for place. Or the cafeteria, points with the cafeteria. One of the those who used to have the job mentioned it was like being the mayor of a giant metropolis.
MICHAEL MORELL:That’s an effective way to place it.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: You’re confronted with the total vary of let’s take into consideration the finances in 5 years to how will we velocity up service within the cafeteria. It’s a jack of all trades job and you have got to have the ability to transfer from matter to matter to matter to matter and never let your- particularly for an analyst- not let your instincts to only go deep on all the things take over. Because you do not have the time.
MICHAEL MORELL: Let me ask about COVID which maybe was the most important problem that you simply needed to take care of if you had been the chief working officer.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: March of 2020, that is one other factor I keep in mind fairly vividly. I keep in mind Friday, it was March, Friday the thirteenth. We began feeling like there was- you had been sitting on the seaside and there was a giant wave coming at you and also you began to appreciate that is so much larger than it seems and I’m not going to have the ability to get out of the best way. Gina Haspel and Vaughn Bishop, the director and the deputy on the time, we obtained collectively and so they gave me plenty of working room and mentioned, simply do what it takes to ensure that we are able to function and we hold the place protected. We convened a bunch of conferences. We minimize the workforce in half, alternated weeks as a result of, in fact, we could not make money working from home. So with the intention to hold that social distancing piece in a constructing that, as you simply referenced, it was already full house clever. We needed to do some extraordinary issues.
We had gotten an organization out in California to make masks for us as a result of masks had been briefly provide. We had put sanitizers, hand sanitizers in every single place. There had been so many unknowns. We weren’t certain in case you might get it off a desk or the place you possibly can get it. And so making an attempt to maintain the workforce protected as a result of we could not shut. We could not simply have everybody kind of come down with COVID. That was a time interval the place we simply did not understand how severe it was. We had been fascinated with, nicely what if we now have plenty of casualties? How will we take care of that? I imply, as horrible as that sounds, you are in an unknown, uncharted territory. And so this was an enormous crew effort. Michael, this. Nobody does disaster higher than the CIA. As quickly as you are in disaster mode, boy, issues click on. And so I simply occurred to be the band chief on the time. But it was an important push. The second a part of that was getting a vaccine. Because we needed to vaccinate our individuals as rapidly as we might. And I believe we had been the primary authorities company to broadly distribute vaccines throughout the workforce. An enormous crew effort, plenty of credit score to lots of people who simply put all the things else apart and obtained it accomplished.
MICHAEL MORELL: Andy, you created a business analytics unit for the primary time within the CIA. And I do know that that performed an enormous function in managing COVID as nicely.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Yeah, it certain did. And it was somewhat little bit of a stroke of luck. We set it up in 2019 since you notice that we weren’t getting constant business information. How many individuals right here, how many individuals work right here, these sorts of questions. Who’s retiring, when are they retiring. All the sorts of issues that almost all companies need. We weren’t getting constant solutions. So we arrange this company business analytics unit to assist pool all that data collectively in order that we might get constant solutions over time. And like having the ability to do this, to have that arrange and have it working for nearly a yr earlier than COVID allowed us to find out the place individuals had been, who was within the constructing. Contact tracing was magical. And that was all due to the work that business analytics had accomplished, the instruments that they had developed. So it was plenty of luck once more, that we set that up in 19. And nobody was considering how essential it might be when it’s a must to handle a workforce that is dealing with a pandemic.
MICHAEL MORELL: Then there was the Afghan withdrawal. Andy, stroll us by means of the function that you simply performed there.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Once the president made the announcement about withdrawing from Afghanistan, we started the intense planning of how will we transfer individuals out. We’d been there for 20 years. And so plenty of materials accrues that you simply simply do not wish to fall into the incorrect arms. And so the most important credit score right here, Michael, goes to the Directorate of Support, Director of Operations. They did phenomenal work in ensuring that we had all the fabric tagged that we might get out. Material we could not get out we destroyed. Making certain we had all our individuals protected, helped get Afghans overseas. And so, my job was if there is a roadblock, inform me I’ll get it out of the best way. They drove, and so they did an exceptional job.
MICHAEL MORELL: Just another query. You’ve been retired just some weeks now. What are your plans going ahead?
ANDY MAKRIDIS: I’ll simply kind of catch my breath for this month, right here in December. I wish to keep engaged and challenged. I nonetheless really feel too younger to retire, retire. But after 37 years of managing and main a posh worldwide group, I actually do assume I’ve issues I might share. So I’m going to search for some alternatives to share these issues the place relevant. I suppose most likely extra of a portfolio strategy to retirement or perhaps the subsequent part. I should not name it retirement as a result of I think you will get very busy. We talked about a few of the adjustments which are coming and we touched on tech briefly a few occasions. And I do know we did not get to a few of the present points, however I believe you and I agree that we’re dealing with an financial Cold War. And I believe the pivot level of that Cold War is tech. And I believe nowhere is it extra pronounced than the intersection between rising know-how and nationwide safety in areas like house, biotech, computing, autonomy, communications. I believe these are huge key areas. And so having a technical background and having all this kind of nationwide safety expertise, I’m hoping that someplace in that intersection of these that may I can discover locations the place I can add worth and might help individuals.
MICHAEL MORELL: I believe your telephone’s going to ring for certain. I’m fairly assured it’s. So we did not get to the substantive stuff, Andy, and I’m sorry about that. We’ll need to have you ever again and speak about that. I’d like to have you ever on the present once more, you’d be an important visitor host. You’d be an important particular person to affix me each from time to time to speak about what is going on on on the earth.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: We can swap Waco tales.
MICHAEL MORELL: We can swap Waco tales. We can swap pulling brush tales, which we won’t speak about. So thanks for becoming a member of us and we are going to discuss with you once more. Thank you a lot.
ANDY MAKRIDIS: Thank you, Michael.